Curse

Shmanka · Apr 02, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Yeah. I was playing with human monks the other day and they would NOT heal the minions! At least Dunkoro, Talkorah, and Mhenlo know what their job is.

I'd rather them heal the minions then bring Searing Flames and Bane Signet.
Thunderhead Keep Bonus ftl.

Phantom Flux · Apr 02, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

I don't think Hard Mode is necessary. When players say things such as, "Oh I didn't like it, it was too easy!" That's just silly macho-rpg talk. Why would they still be logged into GW playing on your team if they actually wanted to stop playing the game for being "too easy."

I think elistism is stupid and it's mostly done by really young pretentious Sci fi nerds or really, really old and possibly sexually frustrated 50 year olds who do nothing but dictate rpg politics and get fat eating cheese curls with cheese wiz behind the pc screen and I really hope Anet considers on trying to make Hard Mode adjustable for anyone to create an out-of-the-box build.

It's just like going to FOW and/or UW and sayng ...so what!? Not to get way off topic, but FOW and UW can become incredibly boring for me when I choose a typical core class (excluding the Mesmer) just to repeat the same darn thing over and over. It's really boring to just take a warrior (unless maybe she's a w/rt), monk, necro (either SS or BIP build), and of course your typical overused nuker. Sure they seem to get the job done (expectedly, yet not all the time), but I've enjoyed using classes such as the Assassin, the ritualist, paragon, Dervish and even the Mesmer not because I know I'd do a good job, but it would bring something different and interesting.

When Elistism comes around to Hard mode, that means unless you are not some stupid boring core (warrior, necro, monk, ranger and not including the meser) build you'll just get discriminated regardless of how good you are. Atleast maybe 70%/100%. To avoid such issues I use heros and henchman all the time (if they are available, which makes Domain of Anguish, Urgoz and The Deep incredibly stupid since you have to get into some nerd's rpg politics to get into a team.).

Elitism belongs to the world of PVP, specifically the international section where it's mostly of Anti-Americans claiming we are soooo bad, blaming us for things that had nothing to do with us (I know sad right?) while they are the ones creating the segregation and taking the fun out. Still, elitism shouldn't be anywhere and I know that last comment about regarding international folks was quite harsh, but from my experiences it's mostly players I meet off the int districts that tend to manifest the idiotic elitism.

I know we just want to get through a lot of the missions, but elitism doesn't work all the time, and usually not most of the time. I don't mind a challenging Hard mode, yet something still fair for everyone. Yet let's face it, you can't rock everyone's boat.

BenjZee · Apr 02, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

i recon you'll need the protector title to "enter" hard mode anyway.

Zinger314 · Apr 02, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Yeah. I was playing with human monks the other day and they would NOT heal the minions! At least Dunkoro, Talkorah, and Mhenlo know what their job is.

Unless I missed your sarcasm completely...you're joking, right? It's horrible that Dunk/Talk/Mhen heal minions. If you don't understand why, look at [skill=text]Blood of the Master[/skill] really, really carefully.

It's not enough to warrant bringing Human Monks, but that's not the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantom Flux

I don't think Hard Mode is necessary. When players say things such as, "Oh I didn't like it, it was too easy!" That's just silly macho-rpg talk. Why would they still be logged into GW playing on your team if they actually wanted to stop playing the game for being "too easy."

It's needed because PvE content has been stale since November 06 (i.e. 5 months).

Spartan117 · Apr 02, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

i hate it when the npc monks heal only the minions. i play an attack warrior, (meaning i dont have many defencive skills endure pain is about it) its only disadvantage is that i have to rely on monks entirely for my healing. when all they are doing is healing the minions, i end up dieing and only getting rezed. my tank is tough, but not with dp. a good human monk is a tanks best friend lol.

Phantom Flux · Apr 02, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan117

i hate it when the npc monks heal only the minions. i play an attack warrior, (meaning i dont have many defencive skills endure pain is about it) its only disadvantage is that i have to rely on monks entirely for my healing. when all they are doing is healing the minions, i end up dieing and only getting rezed. my tank is tough, but not with dp. a good human monk is a tanks best friend lol.

IMO Monk heros are better than real playing monks. Atleast when I set my monk heros to avoid combat, they do just that. Most monks think they should tank and when they say they know they shouldn't, they still do.

Let's forget that most monk players now have been acting like they got the right to act like some elistist to compensate and hide that they are bad monk players. Atleast monk heroes and npc don't get arrogant with you.

Feathermoore Rep · Apr 02, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

@phantom flux - So ok i thought nightfall was generally easy. I ran through 3 characters through it in about 2-3 weeks. 2 of them getting/getting close to Elonian GMC. I started a 4th and it just got boring. Its not that i couldnt do it. It was just too easy, but too time consuming for me to sit through that 4th character. Personally, I love PvE. (I like beating things that dont yell back at me ;-) ). And I'm looking forward to Hard mode. I feel it will give me a reason to go back through each campaign. Harder enemies means I'm more on my toes, and I dont sit back and just cruise through.

That brings up the question, Well what is Hard? Hard is a game mode that is supposed to be difficult. Its a game mode thats supposed to bring out the full potential of the player while not being impossible to beat.

On that note, I'll say right now that the Realm of Torment and the Domain of Anguish fullfill their titles of Elite Areas. IMHO, I think Hard mode should be similar to the DoA. Obviously, not quite as hard as those are Elite missions. I don't expect to spend 5 hours on a Hard Mode mission. If they are on the level of Gloom. Then hard mode should be a great and fun challenge.

Now thats thats out of the way. Elitism. Elitism will always exists. Also, the general consensus is that Elitism is bad. However, elitism is necessary. Sure there are a few jerks out there with overly large E-peens who feel the constant need to stroke them, whether they are actually good or not. Don't let that turn you off though. DoA for example. DoA is hard. Its an Elite area for a reason. Its not made so you can pansy your way through it and still win. As well, DoA is not for everyone. Again its an ELITE area. If you just got your first character through NF for the first time, I highly suggest that you avoid DoA for the time being. Go play make another character. Get involved in some PvP. Even if it just maybe RA or TA. Really get to know the basic game mechanics and skills of your characters class. Then I'd suggest go to the UW or FoW. Groups are WAY laid back there. Once you feel comfortable with that, then try to venture your way into DoA. But anywhoo this isn't a DoA thread. What i really wanted to point out was that in DoA, Elitism exists to save people time. People who have already conquered Mallyx and are just farming gemstones or are doing it for the challenge, generally don't want to have to spend more time there than they have to. As well, if you join a group and say that you've done it before and then you do a common mistake. You may get scolded. Because even the simplest mistake can cost a team the mission there. And if your an hour into foundry and someone makes a newb mistake. Congrats you just wasted everyones time. Now sure everyone makes mistakes. But the mistakes that cause party wipes are often the same ones that people are repeatedly told over and over to not do. And when this happens one or two people will general rage at the mistakee and bail out if they party is not already wiped. Because the time isn't worth it, in an area where the quests can take between 1-5 hours if you do just one.

Now many of yall will look above and call those people who rage Elitists. Sure to a degree yes. But if you lie to a group and say you've done it before and you haven't. Then you screw over the party later on, and try to call them Elitists. Your in the wrong because you lied to them. If you want to get in a good group and learn to play DoA, the best thing to do is to be upfront with group. Tell that you haven't done it before, but that your willing to listen and learn. If they are good players they will take you and teach you. If they are over Elitist, they may boot you or someone may leave. But don't worry. That happens. There are always over-confident people.

But I'll say it again, PLEASE don't join a group and lie saying that you've done it before. Because if you screw up, and you were in my group I would have raged at you. Not becuase I'm Elitist but because i expected you to have some common sense about what to do. I've had several groups that have claimed to have completed it before, only to have then take twice as long as need because they insisted on doing something the wrong way, costing me time.
(Note: I'm not claiming I'm god at DoA. However, I think I have enough experience to help direct the group and make decisions.)

I went off on a tangent again. But i think you should read it anyway before you call everyone in DoA a bunch of Elitists.

Finally, how does this relate to Hard Mode and Elitism? I'll try to make this short. If Hard Mode is actually "Hard", then yes Elitism will exist and yes its is necessary. Obviously it won't be based on experience in the physical missions, as noone will have played them first time around. But it will be based on player awareness and skill. Skillbar Pings and I will become good friends during Hard Mode most likely. If i accept a warrior and see any healing skills except a rez, don't complain when i boot your ass. All I'll be expecting from people during Hard Mode is just common sense and knowledge of game mechanics. Now thats not alot is it? Sure people will have varying opinions of what to expect. But thats all I will expect from people. Lets just wait and see what Hard Mode brings. Then yall can comment.

Phantom Flux · Apr 02, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feathermoore Rep

@phantom flux - So ok i thought nightfall was generally easy. I ran through 3 characters through it in about 2-3 weeks. 2 of them getting/getting close to Elonian GMC. I started a 4th and it just got boring. Its not that i couldnt do it. It was just too easy, but too time consuming for me to sit through that 4th character. Personally, I love PvE. (I like beating things that dont yell back at me ;-) ). And I'm looking forward to Hard mode. I feel it will give me a reason to go back through each campaign. Harder enemies means I'm more on my toes, and I dont sit back and just cruise through.

That brings up the question, Well what is Hard? Hard is a game mode that is supposed to be difficult. Its a game mode thats supposed to bring out the full potential of the player while not being impossible to beat.

On that note, I'll say right now that the Realm of Torment and the Domain of Anguish fullfill their titles of Elite Areas. IMHO, I think Hard mode should be similar to the DoA. Obviously, not quite as hard as those are Elite missions. I don't expect to spend 5 hours on a Hard Mode mission. If they are on the level of Gloom. Then hard mode should be a great and fun challenge.

Now thats thats out of the way. Elitism. Elitism will always exists. Also, the general consensus is that Elitism is bad. However, elitism is necessary. Sure there are a few jerks out there with overly large E-peens who feel the constant need to stroke them, whether they are actually good or not. Don't let that turn you off though. DoA for example. DoA is hard. Its an Elite area for a reason. Its not made so you can pansy your way through it and still win. As well, DoA is not for everyone. Again its an ELITE area. If you just got your first character through NF for the first time, I highly suggest that you avoid DoA for the time being. Go play make another character. Get involved in some PvP. Even if it just maybe RA or TA. Really get to know the basic game mechanics and skills of your characters class. Then I'd suggest go to the UW or FoW. Groups are WAY laid back there. Once you feel comfortable with that, then try to venture your way into DoA. But anywhoo this isn't a DoA thread. What i really wanted to point out was that in DoA, Elitism exists to save people time. People who have already conquered Mallyx and are just farming gemstones or are doing it for the challenge, generally don't want to have to spend more time there than they have to. As well, if you join a group and say that you've done it before and then you do a common mistake. You may get scolded. Because even the simplest mistake can cost a team the mission there. And if your an hour into foundry and someone makes a newb mistake. Congrats you just wasted everyones time. Now sure everyone makes mistakes. But the mistakes that cause party wipes are often the same ones that people are repeatedly told over and over to not do. And when this happens one or two people will general rage at the mistakee and bail out if they party is not already wiped. Because the time isn't worth it, in an area where the quests can take between 1-5 hours if you do just one.

Now many of yall will look above and call those people who rage Elitists. Sure to a degree yes. But if you lie to a group and say you've done it before and you haven't. Then you screw over the party later on, and try to call them Elitists. Your in the wrong because you lied to them. If you want to get in a good group and learn to play DoA, the best thing to do is to be upfront with group. Tell that you haven't done it before, but that your willing to listen and learn. If they are good players they will take you and teach you. If they are over Elitist, they may boot you or someone may leave. But don't worry. That happens. There are always over-confident people.

But I'll say it again, PLEASE don't join a group and lie saying that you've done it before. Because if you screw up, and you were in my group I would have raged at you. Not becuase I'm Elitist but because i expected you to have some common sense about what to do. I've had several groups that have claimed to have completed it before, only to have then take twice as long as need because they insisted on doing something the wrong way, costing me time.
(Note: I'm not claiming I'm god at DoA. However, I think I have enough experience to help direct the group and make decisions.)

I went off on a tangent again. But i think you should read it anyway before you call everyone in DoA a bunch of Elitists.

Finally, how does this relate to Hard Mode and Elitism? I'll try to make this short. If Hard Mode is actually "Hard", then yes Elitism will exist and yes its is necessary. Obviously it won't be based on experience in the physical missions, as noone will have played them first time around. But it will be based on player awareness and skill. Skillbar Pings and I will become good friends during Hard Mode most likely. If i accept a warrior and see any healing skills except a rez, don't complain when i boot your ass. All I'll be expecting from people during Hard Mode is just common sense and knowledge of game mechanics. Now thats not alot is it? Sure people will have varying opinions of what to expect. But thats all I will expect from people. Lets just wait and see what Hard Mode brings. Then yall can comment.

LOL, very nice but I think you missed what I meant. I found UW and FOW easy yet boring. I just meant when I see elistism, elistism usually = class prejudice and I think that's incredibly pretentious. I love how I can take an assassin into a group (which isn't always easy), do amazing in fow and get complimented with things such as, "I'll never underestimates sins again." Things such as that.

DOA, is a place where you have to form a team and can't even hench it yourself. So that just becomes a waste of time because elitists = class discrimination = pretentious and = takes the fun out of it. And the most times I actually give in to bringing in a demanded class build (which I hate) and after 10 to 20 minutes of forming a team that is so called in their eyes, "elite," which ends up me in laughing cause the entire team got wiped in a matter of seconds, usually with the team leader going out first.

I think that's what most of the anti-elitists talk about. I can understand if someone just sucks, but if they don't suck and can actually take on a hard mission with a class other players have trouble working at themselves.

P.S. Your avatar put a smile on my face.

Jeremy Untouchable · Apr 02, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

You underestimate the amount of people without friends or a guild.

Good thing its not called Guildwars or anything, then you would be forsed to play with other people to beat hard missions and stuff

3 words, Join A Guild..............lol solowars would prolly have been a dud.

Tarus From Taros · Apr 02, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Firstly, too many people on these forums throw around the word elitism way too freely and give it a bad connotation and that's becomming very annoying. A LOT of the people who play can fall under this category of "elitists" and that's just silly. Secondly, with the discussion of hard mode a lot of the view points expressed herein are very narrow minded.

Hard mode has the possibility to enhance the game in several ways. Obviously the replay value for sections of the game will go up dramatically I estimate. I personally have always wanted to find high level monsters in areas near the start of the chapters. It's nice that I have more incentive to go back to the novice areas of the game. Additionally, playing hardmode will reward players with titles and loot. Is that a bad thing? Maybe one of the more important aspects of this mode is the possibility that it can make players better. This game caters too much to my liking to those who rarely play it by making the game so easy to complete. So now those who don't have a lot of time to play the game have their mode and those of of us who want more of a challenge have ours. Everyone's happy.

And to jump back to the elitism thing. Nobody want's to risk their time and effort playing with inexperienced people, even novices really don't want to play with other novices. They either want someone to do everything for them or they actually want to learn from a more seasoned individual. If you don't like this style of gameplay then you shouldn't play any game that requires teamwork. When people have to depend on others to get something accomplished they are always going to want someone who is more likely to get the job done.

And at the end of the day if you don't like hard mode then just don't play it. You don't need hard mode to enjoy the game. It's there for those of us who want more of a challenge.

Feathermoore Rep · Apr 02, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Phantom Flux, i didnt intend all of that to be directed towards you. The first paragraph was really all i wanted to comment on your post. But i do understand where your coming from. (Hehe Gwen-chan is awesome - But I'm thinking of changing it to Yachiru from Bleach whose just as awesome)

But like what Tarus said, Hard Mode will give GW alot more PvE replayability, something that it has always lacked. But since we don't really know all that much, I'd suggest that everyone reserve their opinions untill it comes out and not make a bunch of hype about potential Elitism, that may or may not become omnipresent in Hard Mode.

But hey 'tis just my two cents.

Caith-Avar · Apr 02, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarus From Taros

And at the end of the day if you don't like hard mode then just don't play it. You don't need hard mode to enjoy the game. It's there for those of us who want more of a challenge.

You make some good points here. But these lines... well. That's the only thing I worry about (as a casual gamer interested in hard mode) - I hope it's either a toggle, or reversible by any other means and not something like:
Okay, you switch on hardmode, but you can't switch it off. I don't expect it to be irreversible, but... that's the only fear I have. Because I want to try it, but I don't want to have to stick with it if I don't like it.

Former Ruling · Apr 02, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

If I remember correctly, the original Dev Update thread said that it was taking so long because they had to tweak and balance some tihngs, like so you get Hard Mode Masters on V Square if your human team got paired with a henchie team. These kind of talking leads to be beleive it'll be perfectly henchable if your smart.

Heros basically made Normal Mode into Easy Mode, even if you were running crappy builds. 2MM 2SF (and similar builds) might as well have been an auto-win button. So Hard Mode will likely just be turned into Normal Mode, where its heroable, but only if you run semi-decent builds.

Caith-Avar · Apr 03, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

If I remember correctly, the original Dev Update thread said that it was taking so long because they had to tweak and balance some tihngs, like so you get Hard Mode Masters on V Square if your human team got paired with a henchie team. These kind of talking leads to be beleive it'll be perfectly henchable if your smart.

Well, I think Vizunah Square is a bit special on that matter, as for a full human team you need 16 players technically, and you cannot control the other half. So what can you do? It's fairly random. Maybe the other group is good, maybe it's crap. One case you win, other you lose.
But what if there isn't any human group on the other side? Insta-lose and try again? Until what? Calls for frustration.

I don't know if this is really a sign for henchable or heroable missions altogether, although my guess is that they will be possible for groups with some henches (maybe one or two...) anyhow. But Vizunah Square and the Unwaking Waters are very specific in that matter, because of the two group thing.

mafia cyborg · Apr 03, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

it makes no sense to me.
wouldnt reducin the size of your party translate into hard mode?
too easy with 8 ppl? do it with 4? too easy for 4 ? do it with 2 etc etc....
a waste fo anet's time which will be better off dedicated fixin serious problems with the game (like the trade spam problem which prevents ppl from communicatin ).

Caith-Avar · Apr 03, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia cyborg

it makes no sense to me.
wouldnt reducin the size of your party translate into hard mode?
too easy with 8 ppl? do it with 4? too easy for 4 ? do it with 2 etc etc....

Well, I like the idea of being able to replay the "lower level" tyria regions in an appropriate difficulty. And it's not about the "with how few people do I have to play to make it challenging".

Quote:

a waste fo anet's time which will be better off dedicated fixin serious problems with the game (like the trade spam problem which prevents ppl from communicatin).

Invite into team, or guest-invite into guild. Close local and trade chat. Done.
Alternatively you can whisper, if there are only two people talking.
Or: Agree to meet in another outpost or district.

And before someone tells me: Those are workarounds, not solutions.
As is kicking my fellow guildmates (in my case that's people I know from real life and we have played numerous characters together through the three campaigns) to be able to make stuff "challenging".
And I think it's still easier to make "hard mode" than to make a chat or spam filter that does not ban players that just had a lag and thus accidentally posted something twice.
If you really want to do something about excessive spamming, report it. If you want to get people to use the trade channel, then get a large portion of people not to react on local chat trade offers, but only on trade channel.

Does-it-Matter · Apr 03, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia cyborg

it makes no sense to me.
wouldnt reducin the size of your party translate into hard mode?
too easy with 8 ppl? do it with 4? too easy for 4 ? do it with 2 etc etc....
a waste fo anet's time which will be better off dedicated fixin serious problems with the game (like the trade spam problem which prevents ppl from communicatin ).

Because it's a social game.

And think about it, if the party size is reduced, you're going to exclude more people. Hell, think back to the early days of just Prophecies when the holy trinity (warrior, Elementalist, monk) were the only characters readily accepted into a party. (Mesmer who...?)

Necro's got included somewhere in there once people started realizing their potential, but Mesmers and Rangers were kicked to the curb.

Then comes Factions. "Kick the Assassin or I leave!" was the phrase of the day. Ritualists were a red-headed stepchild until Rit Lord or the healing Rits were developed.

Nightfall. The community was hesitant to start including Dervishes and Paragons, until their true capability was realized. Then the Paragons got beat down to Ranger-hood. To its credit, the Dervish is starting to replace the Warrior in more progressive PUGs.

So where does that leave us? I still see groups demanding two monks (despite the fact they aren't needed, unless one plans to be reckless), and usually a tank, MM and SF Nuker. Once they have those 5 players THEN you might see others included, although usually its another MM, SF, SS, Spirit Spammer, Barrager, or battery (most useless ever! /rant)

So where does that leave the classes? As it stands now, Mesmers are first to go. Ranger has to be a Barrager (or to a lesser degree, Trapper) or else its generally not priority. Paragon... Assassin...

Now think about this priority in classes, and how picky the PUG community would get if we suddenly made the "hard mode" to be smaller parties. We'd be back to the holy trinity in no time.

Former Ruling · Apr 03, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caith-Avar

Well, I think Vizunah Square is a bit special on that matter, as for a full human team you need 16 players technically, and you cannot control the other half. So what can you do? It's fairly random. Maybe the other group is good, maybe it's crap. One case you win, other you lose.
But what if there isn't any human group on the other side? Insta-lose and try again? Until what? Calls for frustration.

I don't know if this is really a sign for henchable or heroable missions altogether, although my guess is that they will be possible for groups with some henches (maybe one or two...) anyhow. But Vizunah Square and the Unwaking Waters are very specific in that matter, because of the two group thing.

Those are special missions, but the way they said it I am just taking a guess that content will on the whole be heroable (if not henchable).

mafia cyborg · Apr 03, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

Because it's a social game.

.

sorry I didnt notice. all i see on my screen is wts this wtb that.

Caith-Avar · Apr 03, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

@Former Ruling You're probably right. I hope it's designed for 4-6 human player parties. We usually lack human-controlled monks for some teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia cyborg

sorry I didnt notice. all i see on my screen is wts this wtb that.

Turn off local chat. Turn off trade chat. Those messages that suddenly don't disappear from the screen within a quarter of a second are your guildies (green), whispers (also greenish), your alliance people (orange) or your team (blue). Say "Hi!" to them now.

I always only turn on local chat out of curiosity. Honestly.

And I did see a group in Nahpui once that WANTED an assassin. I think they said something about "bad one" and "exploit corpse"... hmm... they found one, though.
...
Is it a bad sign if a class is only taken because they're of use dead?